frontpage server extensions

[dthomas7642]

Hi, could you guys tell me how to install front page server extensions to work with abyss web server? What do I need to do it?

[olly86]

FrontPage extensions are a Microsoft technology and for legal reasons can't be integrated into abyss web server.

For more info read:
http://www.aprelium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1520
http://www.aprelium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2719
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Olly

[gsownsby]

Meaning no disrespect, that's not exactly accurate. Microsoft FrontPage extensions are available for free for Apache and MS IIS. At the moment, I think they are a bit behind the Apache curve...stuck at around 1.3 or so. The latest version of FP (for XP) does not rely on extensions so perhaps they are dying off as they were a bit troublesome. With that said though, there are literally millions of FP websites around so I suspect the extensions will be around for a long time.

If you want to run a FrontPage website on Abyss, you can by doing a complete copy of the whole website to a folder under the HTDOCS folder. For the most part, most of the FrontPage page layout functions will continue to operate; however, those that require the true server-side extensions won't. You can still do forms, etc. without using FP forms generator (never liked that too much anyway). I've used FP since version 1.0.

To update the website from your editing PC, either copy the whole folder again or use a smart backup tool like SecondCopy 2000 to "exact" copy the edited website to the Abyss folder. FP has a lot of hidden _vti, etc. folders which must be copied too even though you didn't consciously edit them, FP did. The idea is to keep the website intact when you copy it to the Abyss folder. This works. I have five FP websites on my Abyss installation now.

If you want to carry this conversation further, we can go off-line.

[olly86]

I never said you can not design your pages in FrontPage; all I said was that you can not use the FrontPage extensions as abyss web server does not support them.

From my knowledge FrontPage extensions are forms and things like that, which as I already said will not work with abyss because there is no plug in available.

I know pages designed in FrontPage will work with abyss in their entirety provided the user does not add forms or other extension items.

I have never used the FrontPage extensions, and hate the web design program anyway!
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Olly

[gsownsby]

Don't be so touchy. I was very courteous in my reply but your answer was not totally accurate to someone who clearly desired to use FrontPage. Your reply painted such a dark and negative answer so as to discourage the original poster from using FP.

I use FrontPage on over 700 websites so I think I know a bit about it and the extensions. Whether you like it or not, FP has sold millions of copies and has continuously improved since its first release years ago.

FP extensions are more than just forms and the like but layout design elements and easier ways of doing things so that real people, not just techies can have websites. It and other software tools like it have opened the Internet to the "common" person.

As with most things, there are many ways to get things done. FP just happens to be a good tool and easy to use and learn.

[aprelium]

[quote="gsownsby"]Meaning no disrespect, that's not exactly accurate. Microsoft FrontPage extensions are available for free for Apache and MS IIS. At the moment, I think they are a bit behind the Apache curve...stuck at around 1.3 or so.[quote]
And who are the guys behind these Apache FP extensions? Microsoft of course: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnservext/html/Unixfpse.asp .

(There are other incomplete open source FrontPage Extensions projects, but most of them are still in development state).
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Support Team
Aprelium - http://www.aprelium.com

[gsownsby]

Okay so what's the point of that comment? Extensions just make a software package more capable. If it were not for extensions or other plug-in type packages, Abyss would be much less capable since you would have to adapt other functions to be provided by Abyss which clearly it can't do now or perhaps ever. FP Extensions are just another form of serverside includes so to speak. What's the problem?? If you don't want to support FP Extensions, that's fine. As I said, extensions are converting to other types of methods anyway.

To bad, some folks try to make Microsoft the bad guy. Sour grapes?? Boy, that's what I like about forums...those that don't know masquerade as those that do.

[Anonymoose]

Aprelium's post wasn't intended to make MS the bad guy - it's just a statement that the only fully compatible FP Extensions for Apache are produced by MS themselves, who of course know exactly what their own code does and can recode it for alternate servers, for profit.

Looking at it cynically, it's intended to keep users using Frontpage rather than using open standards - PHP, Perl, whatever - for their site designs. If people couldn't use Frontpage Extensions, Frontpage would be just another webdesign package with no features to lift it above something like Dreamweaver. Alternatively, they're just being helpful :wink: The open source attempt at FP extensions is based on reverse engineering, and is by their own admission incomplete.

I don't know how many staff Aprelium have, but I don't think it's enough to sit down and try and reverse engineer Frontpage as well as produce the next version of Abyss :D Can you think of any other small freeware webservers that *do* have FP support ?

[gsownsby]

Anonymoose,

I appreciate your comment and perspective.

Having lived in the IS world for nearly 30 years, the open source vs. proprietary discussion always draws some commentary both ways. Though I know the "mom and apple pie" goal of open source, I'm not convinced it is the "savior of the world" either"

What usually happens is entrepreneurs get there first with functions that others don't or can't provide and come to market with a product. That's exactly what FrontPage did. Extensions made possible some pretty techy capability to those that were not and did not desire to be programmers. MS packaged it as a server add-on and it worked.

Hmmm...profit...when did that become bad? I suspect that Aprelium would like to make some some day too. May be I missed it but is it Aprelium's intent to make Abyss code open source? Are they not trying to find a niche market for their product? I hope they are...that's just good business sense. One looks for gaps in product capability whether it's ease of installation, additional features, cost, etc. and markets it. It's called "competitive edge." Every real profit-seeking business looks for it EVERY day.

I don't know what the staffing is at Aprelium but I think you're right. No, I don't know of other small web servers with FP extension capability right now. Hmmm...could that be a competitive advantage for Aprelium?? I think so but that may not be their business goal. From what I can tell, they seem to be interested in staying small and bringing out a "pro" version for the home market. That's fine but in disregarding FP extensions, they might be missing a useful niche.

We use Dreamweaver too in addition to FrontPage. At a list price of $399, it's a bit pricey for the average bear. As I said in my previous post, there are many ways to accomplish things. Dreamweaver and FrontPage have their place in the web world.

Thanks again for your reply.

[njgill]

besides frontpage... what software would be fully supported by apprelium

[olly86]

to name a few addons that can do what frontpage can only better

php
perl
asp

_________________
Olly

[iNaNimAtE]

Wow... this seems to be a compeditive topic.

As always, Microsoft's goal was to create ease of use to the user. FrontPage is a "visual drag-n-drop" editor that a lot of people prefer.

PHP, ASP, and Perl are a lot more complicated. However, they can do more than FrontPage (to some extent).

If Aprelium were to include FrontPage extentions in their "Pro" version of Abyss, they could do it one of two ways:
1) Reverse-Engineer it (which is strictly illegal)
2) Make a deal with Microsoft

If they did make a deal with Microsoft, that would cost a good amount of money. For Aprelium to make back this money in sales to at least break ground zero, there needs to be a large market for people who require FrontPage extentions for their work. Considering Abyss Pro is targeted at adept computer users/IT Workers (I mean come on; it's a professional web server), the people who would most likely buy it would probably be somewhat advanced in PHP, ASP, or at least Perl. So is there still a need?

That is just my guess at it; but considering Aprelium hasn't told us personally, all of our comments are just guesses.
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Bienvenidos!

[ghb]

Interesting discussion. Thank you for explaining why Abyss does not currently support FrontPage Server Extensions. Prior to reading this thread, I was able to copy all of the *.html and associated web folders that were created by FP via File > New > Web and pasted them into htdocs = could view index.htm and all associated files -- just confirming that the above stated method works (if I can do it, anyone can).

As stated / eluded to above, forms can be created by other WYSIWYG web editors, such as DreamWeaver. However, if the form is created in DreamWeaver, will Abyss "allow" that form to work - (FP created forms normally get an error stating that there are no FP Server Extentions = same with DreamWeaver?).

Thank you in advance.

[iNaNimAtE]

Dreamweaver's forms work, because it does not use a proprietary format of coding like FrontPage does (Microsoft just loves to do that; don't they?).
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Bienvenidos!

[ghb]

[gsownsby]

Except for some a few of the FrontPage components, I have found that you can create your website on a Windows machine then copy (not publish) then entire website to your Abyss HTDOCs folder, the FP components still work. No, not all but MOST do...especially those concerned with layout, forms, etc.