Dead?

 
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leckley
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:15 am    Post subject: Dead? Reply with quote

Is Abyss dead or is it still being actively developed?
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admin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: Dead? Reply with quote

leckley wrote:
Is Abyss dead or is it still being actively developed?


Dead???!!! We're about to celebrate 10 years since the release of Abyss Web Server X1 version 1.0 and the "risky zone" is far behind us (most products and most companies have the highest risk to disappear within their first 5 years. The risk diminishes greatly after that.)

We don't release new versions too often as the software is mature and new versions for us mean new features (and not bug fixes as with other fellow software developers).

We release a new version every year (almost) and we prefer working a lot in silence instead of speaking too much and creating useless buzz. ;)

Version 2.8 is almost finished and will be announced soon. We are not very active on this forum (which is mainly a community forum) but you can contact us by email and we will reply in less than 24 hours usually.

Thanks :)
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Toasty
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happened to this forum? I haven't checked it in months, and I come back to (maybe) two interesting topics.

I've been a huge fan of, and continue to use, Abyss... But seeing these forums, and the release dates (and the nasty JPEG look to the image on the homepage) make this software look like abandonware. I've pushed for ages for people to use Abyss, but it's hard to justify it.


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anybody
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is so nasty about the image that makes Abyss look like abandonware?
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Toasty
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artifacts


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your gonna have to elaborate on that, man. I've never seen the image look like that in any web browser I've used to view aprelium's home page.
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Toasty
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not browser related. It's a downfall of using JPEG, which utilizes a lossy compression algorithm.

Read more about compression artifacts, and sample photos of JPEG artifacts.


A better way to represent this image, and possibly with less storage space too, is with an indexed PNG file, or even indexed (gag) gif. If Aprelium posts their original file, I'd happy convert it into an indexed image.
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Toasty
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, you may say that's nit-picky, but people who spend all day developing and designing have trained eyes for that, and those are also the people in the market for this software. It's less noticeable on low contrast and/or CRT displays. Use an LCD display via DVI or HDMI and it'll become more apparent. Tip the monitor back (look from the bottom of the screen up, and then it's profound.)

It's nothing with Aprelium, except that the image bothers me every time I log in here, and I figured I'd point it out. It wasn't even a main focus of what I'm saying, it was a parenthesized side now.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with portable network graphics (png). all of my notebooks and comps all have LCD monitors and, I still don't see it except in the image you posted.

I do know that jpeg images have different color depths when you save them and the lower the color depth the image has the more distorted the image looks.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I also use portable network graphics on sites I develop. they are more defined and use transparency. You can't do that with jpeg images and gif images just lack the color depth needed even though you can use transparency with them.
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admin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toasty,

The JPEG image is fine on any browser and viewer. It seems that you have a proxy or a download-speed-enhancer utility (Sucha as Opera's turbo mode) that recompresses the file and serves it back to you while creating these artifacts.

Try downloading the image from http://www.aprelium.com/common/abyss-poster-27-s.jpg and check that its size is exactly 22 711 bytes. If you get another size, you have a "tool" in the middle or a bad browser.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toasty wrote:
and the release dates


Can you please explain us what frequency of software updates would make us look more active and our software not "abandonware"?

By the way, do you qualify Adobe Photoshop of "abandonware"?
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Toasty
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I get that size for the image, and yes, it still has artifacts. It's cool though, if you'd rather attack your users than understand that they're trying to give creative criticism, then that's the path you're taking. Sounds risky in the tough business climate as of late.

As for your Photoshop question, I'm not sure what you mean, however I take it as "Do you think Adobe Photoshop is abandonware based on its release cycle"

To answer that question, allow me to help inform the critics of our posts by citing their version history.

First off, yes, Adobe doesn't have a very frequent release cycle, like Abyss.

So why would I look at Abyss one way and Photoshop the other?
A) The size of the package. Abyss is extremely lightweight, with a presumably much smaller codebase.
B) The amount of users. Adobe doesn't have to work hard to gain a market presence, they've had that for years in their market. Abyss is rarely known out of some very small circles.
C) Why are you comparing apples to oranges? Are you making a raster graphics editor, or a web server? If you're going to answer with webserver, let's look at your biggest, and most fit, competitor Apache's release cycle, which also happens to be free (not saying Abyss should be, but it's a buying decision). Currently, Aprelium doesn't even take the largest share of servers into consideration... Linux. Do you provide the package? Yes. But this site is obviously geared to Windows. You should drop Mac support, and use that effort towards Linux. Also, for the X1 users, require display of your logo button, don't just state "it would be nice."


/rant
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admin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toasty wrote:
Yes, I get that size for the image, and yes, it still has artifacts.


What kind of display are you using? What is the browser (exact version) that you are using?


Quote:
It's cool though, if you'd rather attack your users than understand that they're trying to give creative criticism, then that's the path you're taking. Sounds risky in the tough business climate as of late.


We're just discussing, there was no attack.

Quote:
So why would I look at Abyss one way and Photoshop the other?
A) The size of the package. Abyss is extremely lightweight, with a presumably much smaller codebase.


Yes it is much smaller and we're always working to avoid bloating the software for maximum performance. So it takes time and know-how to achieve that (in comparison with Adobe which simply adds new code to old code without any need or will to clean the whole project.)

Quote:
B) The amount of users. Adobe doesn't have to work hard to gain a market presence, they've had that for years in their market. Abyss is rarely known out of some very small circles.


We're not working to achieve worldwide dominance and generate billions of dollars to reward our investors. We're only craft a product which satisfies our users and customers.

Quote:
C) Why are you comparing apples to oranges? Are you making a raster graphics editor, or a web server? If you're going to answer with webserver, let's look at your biggest, and most fit, competitor Apache's release cycle, which also happens to be free (not saying Abyss should be, but it's a buying decision). Currently, Aprelium doesn't even take the largest share of servers into consideration... Linux. Do you provide the package? Yes. But this site is obviously geared to Windows. You should drop Mac support, and use that effort towards Linux. Also, for the X1 users, require display of your logo button, don't just state "it would be nice."


First of all, Apache's release cycle is slow (too) and no new features have been added in years. All their releases are just bug fixes. They have 3 minor releases in 2 years http://httpd.apache.org/ and all of them are to correct problems.

Second, we won't ditch the Mac for two reasons : porting Abyss Web Server on the Mac takes no more than a few minutes for each release. And more than 10% of our customers (paying) are Mac users.

Third, we don't see how we're favoring Windows. We offer customized documentation for each version and we explain the difference between the operating systems whenever a feature requires that. Each version looks and is native to its OS. Apart from that, the software is made to act similarly on each OS and that's a big plus not a disadvantage.

Regarding the Linux version, have you tried it? What do you reproach to the Linux version of Abyss Web Server?

We understand your suggestions but we've been in the Web server's business for 10 years now and we've seen companies enter and leave. Some changed their activities and some sunk. It is a tough business and we're the only independent company which is still on the market. Not everyone loves Apache, few can pay for IIS and its suite, and some prefer different alternatives...

We are in the business to serve our users and customers and to provide them with the best software we can write. We're not here to be a worldwide success ą la Facebook or Google. We're writing "boring" and "professional" software contrarily to others who are publishing shiny desktop applications or games that any grandma could use. ;-)

We hope we've clarified our position a little bit. Your comments and feedback are welcome.
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maxiDAVE
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

admin wrote:
We are in the business to serve our users and customers and to provide them with the best software we can write. We're not here to be a worldwide success ą la Facebook or Google. We're writing "boring" and "professional" software contrarily to others who are publishing shiny desktop applications or games that any grandma could use. ;-)

All I can say is this:

Keep on keeping on... ;)
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Toasty
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

admin wrote:
Toasty wrote:
Yes, I get that size for the image, and yes, it still has artifacts.


What kind of display are you using? What is the browser (exact version) that you are using?

I can see this on any LCD screen for the most part, but it's mostly apparent on DVI or HDMI connected displays, as the color reproduction is most accurate. I'm using Firefox v11, however I can also see it on IE9, and Chrome/Opera/Safari (which I don't have the version numbers right this moment).


Quote:
It's cool though, if you'd rather attack your users than understand that they're trying to give creative criticism, then that's the path you're taking. Sounds risky in the tough business climate as of late.


We're just discussing, there was no attack.
Understood.

Quote:
So why would I look at Abyss one way and Photoshop the other?
A) The size of the package. Abyss is extremely lightweight, with a presumably much smaller codebase.


Yes it is much smaller and we're always working to avoid bloating the software for maximum performance. So it takes time and know-how to achieve that (in comparison with Adobe which simply adds new code to old code without any need or will to clean the whole project.)

Understood, and streamlined software is very desirable. I never stated it wasn't, what I did state is that the release cycle doesn't seem like the software is fresh. There is a [url=google.com?q=abyss%20web%20server%20secunia]list of items[/url] that may dissuade people from using Abyss, and may help show a more frequent release cycle, which has the added bonus of making people with update protection feel like they're getting something extra.

Quote:
B) The amount of users. Adobe doesn't have to work hard to gain a market presence, they've had that for years in their market. Abyss is rarely known out of some very small circles.


We're not working to achieve worldwide dominance and generate billions of dollars to reward our investors. We're only craft a product which satisfies our users and customers.

That's nice, but who doesn't want billions and dominance?

Quote:
C) Why are you comparing apples to oranges? Are you making a raster graphics editor, or a web server? If you're going to answer with webserver, let's look at your biggest, and most fit, competitor Apache's release cycle, which also happens to be free (not saying Abyss should be, but it's a buying decision). Currently, Aprelium doesn't even take the largest share of servers into consideration... Linux. Do you provide the package? Yes. But this site is obviously geared to Windows. You should drop Mac support, and use that effort towards Linux. Also, for the X1 users, require display of your logo button, don't just state "it would be nice."


First of all, Apache's release cycle is slow (too) and no new features have been added in years. All their releases are just bug fixes. They have 3 minor releases in 2 years http://httpd.apache.org/ and all of them are to correct problems.

This Apache 2.4 was released in the last 2 months.


Second, we won't ditch the Mac for two reasons : porting Abyss Web Server on the Mac takes no more than a few minutes for each release. And more than 10% of our customers (paying) are Mac users.

Understood.

Third, we don't see how we're favoring Windows. We offer customized documentation for each version and we explain the difference between the operating systems whenever a feature requires that. Each version looks and is native to its OS. Apart from that, the software is made to act similarly on each OS and that's a big plus not a disadvantage.

Regarding the Linux version, have you tried it? What do you reproach to the Linux version of Abyss Web Server?

I haven't, I said the forums are geared that way.

We understand your suggestions but we've been in the Web server's business for 10 years now and we've seen companies enter and leave. Some changed their activities and some sunk. It is a tough business and we're the only independent company which is still on the market. Not everyone loves Apache, few can pay for IIS and its suite, and some prefer different alternatives...

I hate configuring Apache, for sure.


We are in the business to serve our users and customers and to provide them with the best software we can write. We're not here to be a worldwide success ą la Facebook or Google. We're writing "boring" and "professional" software contrarily to others who are publishing shiny desktop applications or games that any grandma could use. ;-)

And I appreciate that, and have wrote a testimonial about that, I also have a blog where I promote your software. My concern is most definitely not with your server, just your fitness in the market.

We hope we've clarified our position a little bit. Your comments and feedback are welcome.


Apologies about the poor quoting, almost no time to reply right now.
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Toasty
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a 500 error and refreshed when it came back up :(
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phyerboss1
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, no...

They been quite alive imo. Its actually been "me" thats been dead around here^^;
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anybody
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't a battle of wits. You come across as if you have something to prove which leaves me wandering why you care so much about this thread and the image.

In HD that image would be so damn small you wouldn't be able to see any of the artifacts your talking about unless you've got your shit zoomed in so you can read the tiny text that is already tiny without HD then I can see you having artifacts in the image. It's called blockage. I'm sure you see it in low res movies to.

Drop your resolution and I bet you'll see the image just fine.
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Toasty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This isn't a battle of wits. You come across as if you have something to prove which leaves me wandering why you care so much about this thread and the image.

Derp.

Quote:
In HD that image would be so damn small you wouldn't be able to see any of the artifacts your talking about unless you've got your shit zoomed in so you can read the tiny text that is already tiny without HD then I can see you having artifacts in the image. It's called blockage. I'm sure you see it in low res movies to.

My shit doesn't zoom. I'm not sure I've ever seen shit that zooms, actually. As for your "low res movie" comment, you're right. Many video format are keyframed and compressed. Hence my point.

Quote:
Drop your resolution and I bet you'll see the image just fine.

I'm not quite sure what resolution has to do with bit depth and lossy compression schemes.

Didn't mean to bump, but I can't stand it when people post stupid crap.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it does zoom. look under view on the menu bar. same place in both firefox and ie
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aprelium-support
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toasty,

Out of curiosity, do you still see the same kind of artifacts with our current home page (10 Years of Abyss Web Server)?
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rrinc
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought the front page looked kind of artifacty as well. The current image looks much better in comparison though. I'd use PNG (which uses lossless compression) and call it a day, but it looks like you managed to minimize the compression artifacts on your latest image.
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Lawrence
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back to the whole 'what can you do to not look like it's dead' issue...

There needs to be activity. It doesn't all have to be about the product, but some sort of regularly updated dev blog is a must. I do not consider a project active if it hasn't had a site update for more than three months. A stable app like Abyss, which doesn't need a lot of updates or fixes, sort of demands you do something else to fill the void.

I love Aprelium, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Talk to us, about the dev's lives, about Tunisia, or about Formula One. Just be alive, instead of silent.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lawrence,

You've got a point here. :) The idea of a blog is interesting and would make the site seem less static.

We'll work on that as soon as 2.8 would be released.

Thank you for your encouragements.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be able to see the life of aprelium would be a good thing. I like the idea.

I'm also glad this "Dead" issue is resolved.
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